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Apr 07, 2006, 12:53 PM // 12:53
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#41 |
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: England
Guild: Lievs Death Squad [LDS]
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Shard Storm is definatly a hex. It must be as it activates the '+3 (while hexed)' part of the 55 cesta (as used by Coldfire Nights).
Sorry to say though Mist Form sucks. Hurray i can no longer take physical/elemental damage (something that has a few uses i'll admit) but yet i can still get: 1. Interrupted 2. Knocked-down 3. Hit by conditions 4. Hit by every type of non-reducable damage I did use a dual attunement build once. That was when i decided to cap Feast of Corruption of my ele, no point using Meteor Shower there since nearly everything can't be knocked over anyway. Ele Attune Fire Attune AoR Fireball Rodgorts Invocation Mark of Rodgort Immolate Flare Obviously this would be of no-use at all in FoW against the superhealers Shadow Monks which is the only place i use my ele now. I would like to try Earth out down there though. 1 fire ele doing the usual nuking and a nicely placed Eq/As spike just after the 2nd wave of MS. Surely instant doom to all casters surrounding a book holder. The only problem is finding groups for anyone who doesnt take Meteor Shower.... |
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Apr 07, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52
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#42 | |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Feb 2006
Profession: Me/N
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Quote:
As for the whole eles are underpowered arguement I agree that pve they have been usurped as caster of choice by necros however they are still effective and have alot of really good skills and effects and are still useful in pvp. What seems to chafe the eles is that they are no longer damage dealers extraordinair. So many people think too narrowly to realize that an earth ele can have more AL than any other class, before even talking about wards. A water ele has some of the best snares in the game. And air eles can still spike a caster just fine (ask rifts). Sure fire got womped but be creative and come up with new builds. As for being pigeonholed into wards/flashbots/hp spam.... well lets see monks are all infuse or boon prot, mez are all e-denial or migraine, necros are ss or mm, rangers are spirits/barage/interupts, and wariors are stance tanks or adrenaline spikers. So just realize that everyone else is pigeonholed too, until someone breaks rank and thinks of a new build |
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Apr 07, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48
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#43 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Quote:
necros - ss, orders, blood spikes, mm, FoC spikes, support (battery and wells) (by far most diverse profession in game) rangers - barrage/interrupt, beastmaster, trapper, great soloer warriors - sword/axe dps, hammer, stances, runner, uber soloer |
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Apr 07, 2006, 07:28 PM // 19:28
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#44 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Mar 2006
Guild: Jeepers Kreepers
Profession: R/Mo
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Ranger armor has +30 or so versus elemental damage so why not Ele armor. There definitly needs to be an improvement done to the ele class, I mean isn't the whole point of being an offensive magic user in any game is to deal damage to a large group of enemies? That simply doesn't happen since in a few steps the enemy are outside the AoE. I say either improve the damage so it can deal most of it before they run or increase the AoE. If they're worried about making the ele too powerfull they could compensate with less HP for the Lvl. Just a suggestion.
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Apr 07, 2006, 09:37 PM // 21:37
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#45 |
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: England
Guild: Lievs Death Squad [LDS]
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If they boost the damage to hurt them alot before they can run out it just becomes too overpowered if they can't run out.
I'm not quite sure what 'Double Dragon' was suppose to accomplish as the new ele fire elite in Factions. Its basically a crap version of Phoenix... |
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Apr 08, 2006, 12:19 AM // 00:19
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#46 | |
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the midline
Profession: E/Mo
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Quote:
I think they should add +5-10AL vs. elemental to the base. I mean, if you are an elementalist, shouldn't you have extra protection against your own skills? *Just like warrior's get +10 AL (at the very least) vs. physical, elementalists should get +5-10AL vs. elemental attacks. Last edited by LifeInfusion; Apr 08, 2006 at 12:22 AM // 00:22.. |
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Apr 08, 2006, 12:57 AM // 00:57
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#47 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Heightened state of mind.
Profession: P/W
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The whole damage issues breaks down to the armor deductions. All that armor shouldn't defend against elemental damage. Physical attacks are improved by the Weapons damage + skill damage, both of which are improved by the given attribute. Elementist attributes only improve the skill damage, and the energy cost scales up with any added damage, but suffer armor reduction for elemental damage. Compare that to any other caster, Mesmer, Monk or Necromancer, which all have several spells that deal undefended damage, Shadow damage, Life stealing damage (which has dual effectiveness), and smiting damage which is undefended, yet does double damage on undead (everything in Underworld), and Energy burn spells which destroy energy and do unresisted health damage as well.
Elemental damage has alot higher numbers then any of those classes, but they are all false number, I can understand some damage reduction against elemental spells, but not half, half is BS. Balthazars aura does 25 damage 10 times, in an area of effect around a moving target, and ignores armor. That owns on so many levels it is gross. An elementist spending the same amount of energy can get spells like rodgorts invocation, which does a grand total of about 75 damage on a large group, or we can deal about 12 damage for 5 seconds and blind for 10, as if 5 seconds isn't a long enough warning to evade the blind status, or deal about 14 damage for 5 seconds and if they are stupid enough to hang around they get burnt, or deal about 40 damage on a large group and slow them all for 10 seconds. Now in comparrison, only 1 of those deals nearly the same effectiveness balthazars aura does, and that's Deep Freeze. The far lower damage, easily evaded DoT and ending effects, and none of these follow an allied target around in combat. I don't include any 25 energy spells which also have exhaustion, because is a great deal more cost then just the 25 energy, but even those do way less damage, Earthquake, Malestorm, Meteor Shower, the only good thing about these are powerful effects, 2 of which are easily evaded, and all of which are easily interrupted, most of which have 1 more second on casting time then balthazars aura and almost all of which have longer recast times, some even double. NO I did not spend 20 more energy then meteor for 2 more meteors which will not hit, why it cost 5 times more for 2 meteors which are easy to evade, I don't know, sounds kind of like bad math to me, you would think an extra 2 meteors which arn't going to hit would come for a discount. How about the minor cost spells, for 5 energy I can get about 25 fire damage, or 13X5 on ajacent targets, 30 ice damage, which will either be an elite or half distance, 2 hits of 13 earth damage, or about 30 Lightning damage, because we have 25% armor penetration on that one. Now compare that to 50 smiting damage, or removing a hex and dealing 100 damage on all nearby targets, or 30X5 on your location. Hell Smite Hex does 100 damage on all targets nearby X allie for removing a hex, compared to Crystal Wave which does 100 damage on targets around you, but removes all of "Their" Conditions, and for 3 times the cost. What is the outstanding difference? Apparently with lower recast times and 12 points in energy storage giving us double the energy, we should be able to cast our spells twice as much, for the same damage........ Can you play as, kill with, and deal damage as an elementist? Yes. Can you come anywhere close to competing with the effectiveness of other classes skills in damage, efficiency, and opportunity? No. And if your going to compare the overall damage you can deal with 1 line of spells in a continous burst, remember, your using 12 points in an element and 12 points in energy storage to excersise all those chain spells which can be provided for less energy and only 12 points in 1 attribute from another class. If elemental attunement lasted 60 seconds then you might spend the same amount of energy to deal the same amount of damage over a longer period of time, and that's still broken. Elementist damage shouldn't be resisted to half the listed value, not unless every set of armor has a weakness to at least 1 of the 4 elements which would increase the damage done rather then nerf it in some instances. How well elemental damage is on PvE creatures lower then your level and weak to a certain element is totaly irrelavent, considering that any profitable incursions will be against creatures higher then your level, meaning even more armor then the average PvP. Last edited by BahamutKaiser; Apr 08, 2006 at 01:02 AM // 01:02.. |
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Apr 08, 2006, 01:14 AM // 01:14
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#48 | |
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the midline
Profession: E/Mo
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Quote:
Ether Renewal was idiotic to begin with. It gave more Health than energy and was only good for spammage, thus the e/mo prot-smiter was born. Fire magic line is utterly useless because of armor level of mobiles. They aren't even good for Knockdown... Earth or Air magic is better for consistent KD. Even the factions skills for fire magic suck. The only reason why PvE players due to fire damage is because of the level difference of the mobs (like lvl 28 vs. lvl 20 players), and the fact that they come in very large groups of 4 or 5 fire elementalists (Hydras in Ring of Fire Islands, for example). Water does horrid damage... get over it. It is meant for support. Maelstrom is nice, but with AOE change, it is now useless. Ward against harm shouldn't be in this line, it should be in the earth line... As for new skills, Mirror of Ice just plain Rocks. Air is decreased in utility with the decreased damage of lightning orb. It is still brilliant for blind. Enervating charge is the only skill besides gale and blinding flash that I use. Gust is a good new skill, because it doesn't give exhaustion. Earth is the only line I consider to be worthy. There are armor ignoring attacks (although mostly PBAOE) , armor buffs, and wards. In short, it is an all purpose set of skills in one line. It is why I switched from fire to air to earth. It also holds the most useful new skills. ================================================== ====== Heal Party is so effective on an E/Mo only because we have more energy and Monks do not heal with Divine Favor when using Heal Party. |
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Apr 11, 2006, 05:14 AM // 05:14
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#49 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Dec 2005
Guild: Just A Digital Pimp Slap [DPS] - Guild Co-Leader
Profession: E/
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I Have said things like above in other posts enough, and God, i love you all for saying what i have said for sometime now.
@BahamutKaiser what you said in your last post, i could never have been able to say any better. Quote:
**** An underworld Aataxe. A level 29 Bull with some insane armour. A fireball, rodgort, or metor, at level 16 attribute, and stated damage output of 119 atleast if hits, when brings in the affect of armour.. dishes out a damage of about 32ish, or so. Mind you, scatters them too. Spiteful Spirit, on the other hand, does a 37 Shadow damage, armour ignored. And affects adjacent foes too. Both of the skills, one is an elite, and the Eliteness of SS is justified with the number of adjacent foes in affect. What about fireball? I need to cast it 10 times to dish out 320 damage to each foe? and worry about the issue of AI updates? Not to mention, just spent 100 energy, 20 seconds of casting, and 8 second recharge x by 10.. gives 80 seconds of total recharge time. In total, i just spent 100 mana, and 100 seconds ( 1 minute and 40 seconds ) of my time to dishout a 320 per foe damage? And was successfull in triggering the AOE affect while dishing out such a lame damage at first place? Spiteful spirit, 21 seconds lasting time, casted on 1 foe. triggers about 10 times atleast, not including the deadly ripstoe skill used by aataxes, which triggers it twice at the same time. 210 per foe damage with 10 mana, 10 sec recharge, and 2 second wasted time on casting this spell. add a second spiteful spirit, and makes it 4200 damage, 20 mana, and 4 seconds of total cast time. None of the foe scattered, successfully dishedout a massive amount of damage while keeping them at their pace of hitting like jacka**es. Where does the AI go when this happens any way ? Just wondering. Doesn't that seems to be a tad overpowered even if it is an elite spell? which elemental damage spell has such an extra ordinary damage? even if mind burn gets compared? mind you, mind burn has exhaustion included. **** The paragraphs between "****" are taken from another thread i had created in comparison for AI reaction between skills. Link: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...09#post1173609 I am wondering, why does a fireball, rodgorts and meteor scatter foes? they are one hit spells, regardless of how many foes get affected. The damage of spell is Done, and moving away after the spell is dished out makes no difference, unless they are preparing for further spells coming at them. All of these things included with what was said above, make an ele quite a pathetic character class. I Hope ANET actually reads these posts. because seriously, replying to threads like these, specially when a matter has been posted on so many different threads, and conveyed by numerous people. Regardz An Elementalist. Last edited by Xpl0iter; Apr 11, 2006 at 09:14 AM // 09:14.. |
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Apr 11, 2006, 08:34 AM // 08:34
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#50 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Nov 2005
Profession: Mo/R
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Ya, GJ BahamutKaiser, for making such a concise post complete with proofs and thoughtful comments.
Hopefully this thread won't degenerate into "ohh, you lost your farming build" thread like every other one that came up before. The only things that's keeping Eles alive in PvE is Meteor Shower and "The Book/Gear/etc. Trick" With faction coming out and people pressuring the removal of gear aggro + the assortment of anti-spike spirits, I suspect elementalist will truly die out like previous posters have said. There's no way anyone will use overcostly, long cast time, slow recharge, for spells that are inferior to what other classes possess. Not to mention many of them either sends lvl 28 monsters to your monks, or are 15nrg repellent spells. |
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Apr 11, 2006, 03:11 PM // 15:11
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#51 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Heightened state of mind.
Profession: P/W
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Acutally I have a very effective farming build for my fire elementist, if that becomes an issue. It is only because I found a group of High level monsters who glitch and stand there will I bombard them, but that's what I have to do with elementist, either way, my monk is more effective though.
I was trying to come up with some alternative ideas to improve elementist, and some very intersting concepts hit me. Elemental damage is being resisted by armor, just like physical attacks. Now physical attacks increase in damage by 3 factors, first is the attributes improvement to the weapon damage, second is the attributes improvement of the skills damage, and third is the weapon inself. Now compare this to elementist skill damage, the only factor that improves the damage of the skill is the attribute improves the skill damage. Now elementist spells improve with damage more then melee skills, but that is actually just an illusion, because the attribute for masteries is improving the skills damage and the overall weapon damage together, for the same or better damage. So the presumable is that both scale up equally, but there is one more factor that Warrior or Ranger have in their skill damage that elementist doesn't, and that is the damage of the weapon. This is what I propose, Since elemental spell/skill damage is resisted by armor, it should be improved by weapons. The attribute doesn't improve your given weapons attack damage, but the attack damage from your weapon is added to your skill damage, get what I'm saying? Unlike necro, monk and mesmer spells, elemental damage get resisted by armor, so in turn they should also be improve by weapon damage, simular to a melee attack, which also gets resisted by armor. In this way elementist spell damage would be improved by 11-22 elemental damage (variant), not calculating resistance, improving the damage by an additional figure to balance the damage reduced by armor... sadly not as much, but it is a start. The elemental damage of spell would be improved by the elemental damage of Wands and Staffs, this could be dependant on matching elemental damage if neccissary. This would add significance to elementist weapon choice, and even weapon swaping, as well give elementist an added spell damage modifier to compete with armor resistance. Now to top that, they could make elemental spell damage improve for any weapon if their weapon has the same elemental damage as the spell, but because of that, elementist should get a new weapon which does more elemental damage per attack then any other class. This doesn't mean that Elementist should have a higher output weapon, the attack speed could be cut in half to balance with higher damage and slower attack speed. But the primary improvement would be that all the elementist spells would hit significantly harder, or people using elementist weapons would deal the hardest elemental attacks. If current armor withstands, the damage will still be halfed, So if Elementist hits with a spell (including weapon damage), with a current weapon it will do +5-10 damage with a max damage elementist weapon, seems small but it is worth mentioning. Now if an elementist was given half speed/double damage weapons, the effect on spells would be +11-22 damage, and that my friend is worth it, it is enough to compensate for the damage reduced by armors. Now this would have a slightly lopsided improvement to spell damag, spells like flare "could" do +22 damage with the normal damage it usually does, making for about 40 or 45 damage, wile spells like Fireball which list 100+ damage and actually do 50+ damage would only be improved to a maximum of 77+ damage. But because most of those spells are AoE, improving the damage is a more potent figure, because it could do that much more damage on several targets. Thus Elemental damage would be improved enough to compensate for natural armor resistance, and do as much damage as the legitimate cost describes. Wile also adding another "element" of gameplay to elementist, weapon selection. Oh, and I just thought of this, if the elemental damage of DoT spells was increased by weapon damage for each hit, it would easily bump the damage of DoT spells to the level neccissary to be useful, even though I still believe the AoE of these spells should be wider, making the recast times smaller and damage higher wouldn't be neccessary, if weapon damage was a factor. On a detached suggestion, It would be nice if there was an elementist armor set which gave plus energy regeneration for every piece, since we obviously have enough energy from our Primary. It would probably be broken, but penalties or weakness of armor could be included to make it reasonable. +10 energy to a class that can improve his energy pool by a maximum of 48 energy along with icons, is kind of redundant. Or they could make elementist or any class icons which reduce your max energy but increase regeneration. Last edited by BahamutKaiser; Apr 11, 2006 at 03:19 PM // 15:19.. |
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Apr 13, 2006, 03:31 AM // 03:31
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#52 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Dec 2005
Guild: Just A Digital Pimp Slap [DPS] - Guild Co-Leader
Profession: E/
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I hope eles dont become what would be like ....
"Once upon a time, there was a profession class in guildwars, a mage, who could summon fire, earth, air or water any time desired. That kind of power used to bring wrath against foes. And then one day....... its creator decided to nerf it. they forced this mage to change it self, and do what others can, like heal your allies, or create magical wards to support your team. The mage cried out loud, and begged to be given his powers back... but alas, its creator ignored that poor soul's plea. Then this mage tried to adjust himself by learning other professions, one of which allowed him to cast heals effectively to support the monks. Then slowly, this mage tried to use his left over skills, and attempted to come up with a strategy to work arround the nerf which had destroyed his ego before. And then... when its creator found about the feeble attempts made by this poor soul, they provided other professions even better ways to hinder mage. They gave mage's first and second most hatred enemies better powers to kill the mage, and once again, this poor mage found himself to no use, and now, it nearly siezes to exist." Regardz An Elementalist. |
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Apr 14, 2006, 08:55 AM // 08:55
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#53 |
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Wark!!!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Florida
Profession: W/
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In order to improve the viability of El's, how about all single target 5 energy ranged spells are wand/staff attacks meaning you get to do attack damage with them as well. Any ability that blocks ranged attacks will only work on the wand part of the spell.
Spells that would be affected: Lightning Strike Obsidian Flame Stone Daggers Flare Ice Spear Water Trident {Elite} If that list isn't enough, some of the 10 energy spells like blinding flash or enervating charge could be added to the list. |
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Apr 14, 2006, 09:15 AM // 09:15
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#54 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Dec 2005
Guild: Just A Digital Pimp Slap [DPS] - Guild Co-Leader
Profession: E/
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Quote:
Issue is simply about AoE spells. Check the post by BahamutKaiser with regards to DOT damage, and mine with SS comparison. those 2 explains it quite well. Regardz An Elementalist. Last edited by Xpl0iter; Apr 14, 2006 at 09:18 AM // 09:18.. |
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Apr 15, 2006, 03:12 PM // 15:12
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#55 |
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Ancient Windbreaker
 
Join Date: May 2005
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Some good thoughts and ideas in this thread.
I am also dismayed at the lack of damage eles currently do. The whole concept of a mage conjuring elements is one of power spikes (as opposed to steady damage over time). I suggest reading Ensign's thoughts on why nukers suck: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ghlight=ensign I think it's about time Anet pays some attention to this problem. |
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Apr 15, 2006, 11:33 PM // 23:33
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#56 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Heightened state of mind.
Profession: P/W
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I actually did some more research of my own on elementist damage, and it seems that Air magic does all the damage it says it will do, and more. I realy don't understand this, although it is perfectly balanced, I don't see how 25% armor penetration allows air magic to do even more damage then it claims on PvP targets.
Yet, I further cemented the figures on Earth, Water and Fire magic, testing all of them for a definate 50% of listed damage. Earth seemed to do 60% of the damage done, but some figures where hard to rely on because alot of warrior skills lower their defense to put in swings or heal themselves. I have to say, Water magic proved to be plenty effective even with the low damage, expecially against warriors, repeated slow effects pretty much keeps them outside of attack range, and won a few battles for me, but even though it was effective, they should still be doing more damage, the energy cost behind those skills pay for the effectiveness they yield. Although I can understand reduction in damage on AoE spell attacks because they can deal massive damage on several targets, half is not enough, and if the damage should be lower, then the spell damage can be lowered and might as well say how much damage it realy does. All those figures are totaly useless if they are incorrect. Im not so sure any more that Armor itself is what is blocking the damage out, it may be done by level, or have different reductions for different elements, or maybe they just decided those elements are going to do half damage, but they shouldn't be doing such low damage, and they should relate the actual damage figures your likely to see in combat. The bottom line is, These spells should do more damage, even if the listed damage is lowered, the damage figures should be accurate, and if heavily AoE elemental types are to be reduced in damage because of the chance to hit several targets, then they all need increased Area of Effect so they easily do hit several targets. I hope there are enough players out there willing to rally this concern until A.net does something, and that A.net realy reads these forums, because these fake damage figures on Fire, Ice and Earth spells, and the broken weakness of DoT spells realy needs to be addressed. |
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Apr 15, 2006, 11:39 PM // 23:39
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#57 | |
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Wark!!!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Florida
Profession: W/
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Quote:
Still, air doing the damage listed isn't enough for elementalists to be balanced. |
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Apr 16, 2006, 12:36 AM // 00:36
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#58 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Heightened state of mind.
Profession: P/W
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Air damage is balanced for Air, I'm just stating that, because it isn't among the other 3 elements which should be addressed. I imagine the majority of us here focus on PvE or someone would have likely mentioned this a long time ago, Air spiking is a popular PvP build.
But Spiking damage is far from a cure all, yes, players using any of the other elements should have more significant damage within reason. Even more importantly is the weakness of DoT spells, not just because PvE creatures now avoid them, but because in general, they don't hit a wide enough area for a long enough duration to make a significant difference. The only reason for DoT spells to be weak is the use on Guild Lords in GvG, which is the only significant instance where these spells could hit in full on an important target. Even then, if DoT spells are legitimately powerful, players will simply have to use the given options to overcome these sorts of threats, Ward Against elements is enough to make any DoT spell painless, aside from the single meteor shower DoT spell, which at this point is completely worthless for anything else. I was simply trying to add a more accurate analysis of the situation. |
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Apr 16, 2006, 12:46 AM // 00:46
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#59 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Dec 2005
Guild: Acolytes of Lyssa [AL]
Profession: Me/A
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I'd like to commend you on your extensive work and research here, Bahamut.
I completely agree with your point; Fire, Water and Earth all somehow never deal their listed damage, unless you run across a rare enemy type that is weak to a particular element (such as Fire damage > Ice Golem). It's simply no fair when I cast Fireball out at an Ice Imp, and it does 50-ish damage. It seems as if all creatures have a built-in resistance to elemental damage, except Air as you noted. So I feel the current situation with Elemental damage needs to be reworked. |
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Apr 16, 2006, 02:13 AM // 02:13
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#60 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jan 2006
Guild: [TEW]
Profession: N/
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Air spiking is not a popular pvp build. e/mo blind bots, with aegis or heal party spammage, are somewhat popular. But air spike < iway, bloodspike, obsid spike, rainbow spike, and no one uses it. Every now and again, you might see it come out of the closet, but no, not really.
I'm of the opinion that tank armor should have a malus towards ele armor, and ranger armor should lose its extreme buff. Think about it: Metal conducts electricity, gets hot real fast, and can freeze to your skin, requiring surgical removal (or, at the very least, a good stiff tug and a big band aid). And dust ain't so good either. And camping doesn't exactly make you so good at dealing with big ass sky rocks beating your face inside out. Eles are already the big players in tank control (blind bots, warders, you name it we do it). Give em a few more advantages and you could see a nice little dynamic going there, with eles and rangers spanking tanks, tanks spanking monks, and mesmers and necros continuing to own each other and the world. I'm not too scared of ritualists. 5+ second cast time ftl. Any pysical interrupt (savages and distractings), and any kd will shut a rit down nicely. Problem will be MoR and WoStability, but... thats an ele spell. I'm fine with eles being support characters. The more wards we get, the more useful we will be. That said, I would LOVE IT if I could cast AoE spells on an ally, or aim them at the ground. Denial of terrain would make me feel like arty, AND would give some purpose to the nine second mind fcuk that is firestorm. Oh, and eles should have their own anti interrupt spell. Rangers get one, why shouldn't we? |
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